Episode Transcript
The Newest Jewess - Trans Pioneer, Our Lady J, Converting to Judaism and Fighting Antizionist Hate
I don't know what it means to be a Jew.
I'm in my first 24 hours.
Why do you think the queer community has been uniquely susceptible?
There is a very real, alive antisemitism happening in the LGBT community right now.
Where do we start?
I took on the name Jonah, uh, in my early twenties before I transitioned.
Good name.
If you write about Israel and you don't follow the boycott, we will destroy your careers.
What up, what up, what up?
Welcome to a very special and timely episode of the show, including 30 minute mentions.
We've done like 80 something episodes of this thing, so I'm really always looking for unique stories to bring y'all, and today's certainly fits the bill.
My guest today contains multitudes.
She's a trailblazing transgender activist who's broken ground as a writer and director for some of Hollywoods.
Biggest TV shows.
She's also a brilliant musician who's toured with Sia, rocked out with Broadway's Best, and was the first openly trans woman to perform at Carnegie Hall, but none of that is the reason she's here today.
After years of searching, studying and circling the Jewish people from the outside, she became an official member of the tribe last night.
That's right in a Being Jewish first, we're gonna find out what it feels like to be a Jew for less than 24 hours during the most trying time to be a Jew, perhaps in American history from one Yona to another.
Please join me in welcoming the new Jew, our Lady J.
Thank you very much.
So great to have you here, and such an exciting morning.
It's really exciting.
I normally would come with a blowout if I'm on camera, but I came with my mikvah hair because it's,
Which looks fabulous.
It's fresh from the mikvah.
Tell me how you're feeling today.
Like, how did you wake up this morning?
I woke up, um, tired.
I had one of the most, um.
Emotional days of my life and, uh, most joyful days and joyful celebrations of my life.
I don't wanna say it was my happiest day ever, but it, it might have been my happiest day ever.
That's amazing.
Can you, can you take us through yesterday, like what was yesterday for you?
Woke up early.
Um.
Took off all the nail polish, all the jewelry, uh, got ready for the mikvah.
I had been, um, building to this moment for 12 years.
I started my conversion 12 years ago.
Got a little distracted.
Okay yeah.
Came back to it a couple years ago.
And, uh, so everything was really leading up to this moment and I wasn't sure what to expect.
But in that lead up, uh, came.
An even bigger release.
And, um, we went through the trial.
The Beit Din.
The Beit Din.
Okay.
Who were your three rabbis?
My, uh, rabbi, uh, rabbi Iggy, who I believe you know, is my sponsor.
Right from Beit T’Shuvah.
From Beit T’Shuvah.
Right.
Which we'll talk a little bit about later.
Love Beit T’Shuvah.
Mm-hmm.
So he's my sponsoring rabbi.
Amazing.
And then the associate there, rabbi Jade, uh, was our, one of our second, our second rabbi.
Our third rabbi was, uh, rabbi Janice, who was my teacher, uh, for my intro to Judaism classes.
Amazing.
It was a, a special group that felt I could just be honest with about my intentions and what brought me here and what I hope, uh, to bring to the tribe.
What did they ask you?
Iggy gave me a few questions to look at, so I wrote a, a piece based on one of the questions.
I, I.
Sent like four drafts out.
I like draft number eight, like, that's the shooting script for me.
Tell me you're a professional writer that tell me you're a professional writer to see it on the page for the first time.
I had never written about my Judaism.
I've written Jewish characters before, right?
And I've written about my transness before, but I've never written about my Judaism.
Um, so I chose, uh, to write about a scripture.
Isaiah 56, um, enlightened me.
It was the welcoming of the eunuch into the temple.
Along with welcoming of foreigners and converts.
Uh, so I am intersex, which means that I was born with both male and female traits.
I didn't know I was intersex until after I transitioned.
My transition was something I intuited and, uh, many years later was so happy to find out that actually this is my body.
Mm.
Um, so I have partial androgen insensitivity syndrome is what it's called.
Okay.
In biblical times.
Yeah, I would've, I would've been called a eunuch.
So Isaiah welcomed the eunuchs into the temple in Isaiah 56, and there's a beautiful scripture that says, um, don't let the eunuch say I am a dry tree, meaning I can't reproduce.
I have nothing to give to the tribe for the the eunuchs who follow my commandments.
I will welcome you into my temple.
I will give you a name that is eternal and that is better than sons and daughters.
I don't wanna say or like say that trans is better than cis people, but it's in the scripture.
Amazing.
What was the prompt that you were given to then write this scripture?
You said the rabbi gave you a question.
The question was, what did the text mean to you and how has that guided your journey?
I, I grew up in a, so I'm.
My family is ex-Mennonite.
Okay.
Which is like a cousin of the Amish, right.
But ex old Order Mennonite, which is the horse and buggies.
The prayer sha not the prayer shas, the, uh, I'm gonna call it a kipa.
It's not a kipa.
That's my, my religion.
Yeah.
They're, it's, uh, they wear, uh, head coverings.
Mm-hmm.
And so I grew up, uh, in a very, uh, religious environment.
And, uh, we focused on the New Testament though.
Right.
I learned in my intro, intro to Judaism class.
It's not called the Old Testament, we just call it the Bible.
The Bible, yeah.
The ak Yeah.
So scripture was something that I was really familiar with as a child and something I went to quite often.
One of my first memories, uh, growing up was putting on, um.
Praise music as like a toddler.
Like I was probably four years old.
And uh, music was a big important part of my life and I found so much release in connecting to God, um, until there was a disconnect, uh, with homophobia, transphobia.
I grew up, so I was born in 78, so my coming of age happened during the AIDS crisis.
Mm.
And the church really turned on.
Queer people.
Mm-hmm.
And use that as a moment to galvanize voters and build power and all this, all those things that are happening right now in Judaism, right.
Against Jews, uh, that happened against queer people in my, uh, childhood.
Did that sever your, your spirituality and relationship with God as well, or just with sort of the organized religious piece of it?
I thought it did.
I didn't realize that I was wrestling with God that whole time.
I really rebuked.
What I thought was, God, sure.
I thought I was being punished.
I thought God was a punishing God.
I didn't wanna have anything to do with that.
We were pointed to Leviticus and you know those verses that condemn homosexuality.
Nobody pointed me to Isaiah 56 where they said, actually, it's been a couple hundred years.
Right.
Come on in, let's come on in.
Yeah.
Uh, you know, progress Judaism is all about progress.
Mm-hmm.
And even in the chana, in the, in that short period of time, relatively short period of time where we went from Moses to the prophets, um, there was progress.
And so.
That scripture in my conversion when I set out to really study this seriously, uh, for the second time, I said to myself, I'm only gonna do this if I can find something that invites me in who I am, that I don't have to leave myself at the door, right?
Spiritually, religiously.
Um, I know there are atheist Jews and that's something a lot of people don't understand who are outside of Judaism.
How does that work?
Right.
But for me, I'm, I'm not an atheist Jew.
I am a religious Jew.
And that's, I think the first time I've said that.
How'd that feel?
Amazing.
That's great.
Really amazing.
That's so nice.
I'm gonna try not to cry today.
Aw.
Um.
So that, that was the welcoming into the text for me.
That allowed me to kind of trust more and give myself to the process and listen more and be more teachable.
Fantastic.
Okay, so you, you go in front of the rabbis yesterday.
Did you read your, your piece?
No, they, they had it printed out.
Okay.
I sent them another draft right before with spell check.
Okay.
Right.
Until the last second.
And, and then what?
Then what happens?
Uh, they just asked me about it and they asked me, um, about, um, my name.
Um, so I, I was born Justin.
Okay.
I was the only non-biblical name in my house.
Um, interesting.
And so I thought that all of my struggles and all that wrestling with God had something to do with my name that I was.
Cursed in some way.
Um, so I took on the name Jonah, uh, in my early twenties before I transitioned.
Good name.
I like the name Jonah.
It's a good story.
Yeah.
I wasn't really thinking about the second part of the story where he gets swallowed by the whale.
Which part were you thinking?
I was thinking of the part where he runs away from God that you related to.
I was like, yes, I'm into that.
And.
Like the real Jonah, you, there is no running from God, there's no running.
You get brought right back.
Mm-hmm.
So all of that wrestling in those years of struggling with scripture and struggling with my identity and how does that fit in with my spirituality, that to me was the swallowing of the whale.
Mm-hmm.
I've been swallowed many times by this whale and puked up on many shores, and now I'm beginning to be grateful for that and to see that as part of the journey.
When I changed my name to Jonah and then I transitioned, this was over 20 years ago, I transitioned, and at the time it was known that you would change your name to more female name.
Okay.
It was easier for people to change pronouns and all of that.
I didn't wanna change it.
I wasn't sure I wanted, I wanted to do, so I went by Lady J, there was this fabulous trans woman named The Lady Chale.
Mm-hmm.
She was the first, uh, autobiography of a trans person that I read.
Um, there's a musical coming out with about her called Midnight in The Garden of Good and Evil.
That Jason, that's about her.
Ah, it's about the lady.
I mean, I know the, there's a book, there's a film.
So she was a legend and a big inspiration.
So I know I wanted the lady.
Mm-hmm.
And then I thought a religious.
Nod to that.
Our lady would be cheeky and also yeah.
A, a kind of a middle finger to religion at the time.
It was a very rebellious move.
Hmm.
And so I took on our lady, J, J for Jonah.
I ended up changing that legally to Jonna.
Um, but then when I found out that Jonah was a gender neutral name, yeah.
And Jonah was just the English translation of Jonah.
Yeah.
That became my Hebrew name.
And so my rabbi brought my parents into my renaming and, uh, suggested I go to them and ask them how they would feel renaming me as my real name.
They didn't get a chance to rename me when I transitioned.
Um.
And so they loved the name yo.
And that's what it is today.
That's amazing.
Where did, were they here at all, uh, physically present for any of this?
They weren't able to be here.
My mom was struggling, some health issues.
So, sorry.
They will be there for the bat mitzvah in New York.
I'm not sure when that is, but that's the plan.
That's the plan.
Why New York?
I live in New York part-time.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Great.
And have you started studying for your bat mitzvah?
No.
No, but you will.
Okay.
I wanna pick, uh.
The scripture, I wanna pick the, the Torah portion that means the most, and kind of base the date on that, and then, yeah, work backwards from there.
Amazing.
Okay, so you speak about your piece in front of the rabbis and then is it into the mikvah?
There are a lot of questions.
A lot of questions.
What kind of questions?
Uh, things like how.
What are you looking forward to bringing to the tribe?
What are you afraid of?
What don't you agree with?
Um, what are you still wrestling with?
They're stealing all my questions.
Okay.
So I mean, I'd love to hear some, the answers you might get out of 18.
Then what are, what are you afraid of?
I mean, what, what are the reservations?
You still have, obviously you had some reservations, it took you 12 years.
Yeah.
Sort of a, you know, when I was prepping for this and thinking about it was sort of like a, a romance, right?
You had, you had the initial meeting, there's a crush there, there's interest.
Yeah.
And then it wasn't the right time and you, but you danced around each other until finally.
Brought you back.
So what, what are those reservations that maybe you are still holding onto and what were some that you had that you've been able to resolve or at least, um, accept coming from a community where there were no Jews, um, but a respect for Jews and a respect for holy holiness.
Mm-hmm.
People of the word.
Um, I didn't have conscious antisemitism.
I, I heard in the church, and I, I believe it was my mother, I talked to my mom about this.
She said, I don't remember saying that, but sure.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I asked her about who the Jews were and she said, well, they're God's chosen people, which is why they don't need Jesus, but you need Jesus.
And so all I heard was there's a way to not need Jesus.
Let me see what that's about.
Of course, that is a very, uh, it, it was a really sweet way of showing a, a child how to respect other religions without trying to convert other, uh, religions.
Um, and then of course, learning about what the chosen people means, uh, in Judaism is completely different than.
What I think a lot of Christians think it mean.
Yeah.
It means, uh, a friend of mine, uh, told me it's like being chosen to do the dishes.
Right.
You know, it's on this show I've called it litre duty.
There you go.
So I had, um, unconscious antisemitism that I didn't realize that I had.
And a lot of that, uh, is just like social systemic, uh.
Uh, conspiracy theories almost.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't realize how every conspiracy theory basically leads to the Jews, but if you follow the trail, welcome.
That's where it goes.
Yeah.
And in the queer community, there is a lot of, they are hurting us.
They are doing this to us, this to our community.
And, and I started asking my queer friends who, who is they?
Can we not say they?
If you're talking about a group of people, who are you talking about?
Are you talking about Republicans?
Are you talking about mega Um.
And often they can't say who they is, can't say because they don't actually know or they, because they, they don't wanna say Jew.
They, they don't know.
They don't even know who they mean.
It's this idea that there's someone back here who's manipulating you.
Mm-hmm.
And kind of couldn't, it couldn't be the real world.
It's just there's, there has to be some nefarious force.
Yes.
There're obviously, uh, there's obviously oppression in our world and we feel it coming from all over the place.
Mm-hmm.
And I think it's a lot more comfortable to never name.
That oppression to just see it as this force, right?
That's behind us.
The boogeyman.
The boogeyman, right.
And I didn't realize that a lot of that had to do with antisemitism.
A lot of this idea of who's controlling the world, um, who owns all the banks, who's controlling show business, these things are talked about often in queer spaces.
Um, but it's never named as Jews.
And it wasn't until after October 7th where people started naming.
It as Israel.
Mm.
And then it got to the Jews really fast, right?
Sure.
So I had a lot of unconscious antisemitism that was keeping me from leaning in.
And, uh, once I studied, um, the life of Magnus Hirschfield, who was the, who's Magnus Hirschfield?
He was Dr.
Magnus Hirschfield actually.
Okay.
Uh, invented trans medicine.
Okay.
And.
Coined the term trans.
Oh, wow.
In Berlin in 1909, he had an institute called The Institute of Sex, and it was the first LGBT Center.
It's what Planned Parenthood was based on.
Um, it was a sexual wellness, uh.
A center that, uh, studied endocrinology, um, studied the different intersex conditions, um, the variations of gender, sexuality, cross-dressing, all of that.
Did the transparent musical go there in like the dream?
Is that this where it went?
I didn't see the musical.
Oh, you didn't see it?
I was on everything up until the musical.
Okay.
So that was the first time I heard about Hirschfield.
And then when I learned about, um.
Everything that he represented in Germany and Weimar, Germany and how Hitler actually used Hirschfield as an example of the Sneaky Jew.
The Jew who's out to hurt your children, the doctor who is doing nefarious things behind the scene.
I began to understand, uh, antisemitism coming from a place that was not just the Holocaust.
'cause this was many years before the Holocaust.
Mm-hmm.
How did it build up to the Holocaust?
And, um, not being able to trust doctors, the system.
Right.
Because they were all Jews.
Mm-hmm.
I had a lot of reservations medically about my own transition.
Mm-hmm.
And this idea that you just can't.
Trust medicine and then how I realized that that was the same message that was being put out at that same time against Hirschfield.
So there was really an intersection of transphobia, homophobia, and antisemitism that was happening at that time.
That began the unraveling.
That got me more curious.
Well, where does that come from?
Why weren't Jewish doctors trusted?
Why weren't they allowed to study until Hirsch Field's father, uh, his was of the first generation that was actually allowed to go to school.
Right?
And then why weren't they allowed to own property?
Oh, that's why they became bankers.
They weren't allowed to own anything.
Right?
So I just followed that trail backwards and then you get to the crusades and you, you get to the blood libel.
And so this really ancient antisemitism that is really baked into our culture, I had never questioned before.
So once I undid that and said, well, that's.
There's, there's a map there.
Yeah.
To where, how that got into me and how that got all around me.
So in the ways that, um, we, hopefully in the Jewish community have gone and dissected our unconscious bias around race, around homophobia, around transphobia.
I, as a non-Jew dissected.
My, um, antisemitism and tried to put all of that out onto the table, and once it was there, it just, it just kind of happened naturally, like water.
My draw towards, uh, the scriptures and towards God, um, became very strong.
What methodology did you use to go down this historical rabbit hole?
I mean, were you, were you at the library?
Were you chat GB ting, were you speaking to.
Professors, I mean this, you did some like serious study.
It was pre-chat GPT.
Yeah.
Um, this was around 2019 and then the pandemic happened.
So you had time.
I had a lot of time.
I built a camper van.
I crossed country.
Whoa.
Um, I lived out in nature for months on end and just kind of got to know myself in a new way.
Wow.
That's powerful.
It was wonderful actually.
Yeah.
Really tough.
Uh, time for all of us.
But, uh, at the end of the day, I was also able to relate to like, just wandering in the wilderness and what does that mean?
How do we get to know ourselves?
How do we get to know our relationship with God, with nature?
And, and, uh, in that I did a lot of reading as well.
I had some access to, uh.
A, a library in Berlin, the Hirschfield archives.
Oh, cool.
'cause I wrote a pilot about Hirschfield.
Mm.
That, so all this happened for work.
Um, and the pilot is currently being shopped around, so I can't say too much about it.
Okay.
I had the top researchers, uh.
We on the payroll, uh, to work on this pilot.
Amazing.
I got to hold some of the books that weren't burned.
Um, the Nazis had looted Hirsch Field's Library in 33 and moved all the books to the book burning.
So all of the research on trans medicine was destroyed in the book burning.
However, some Nazis who kept souvenirs, and over the years they've been able to find these souvenirs.
Popping up in auctions.
And so the Hirschfield archive has bought back, um, wow.
About a stack of books about this wide compared to there was rooms and rooms of books that were burned.
Okay.
So I feel like this conversation is, it's turning into like a, in me rez kind of pilot where we like started at your thing and then we're like jumping around in flashbacks and stuff.
So I'm gonna bring us back to the thank you to the conversion.
Okay.
So you answer, you field these questions.
Mm-hmm.
How are you feeling fielding these questions?
I've gotten to know, uh, my rabbis really well.
So it just felt like having a conversation with friends, even though it is a, a trial mm-hmm.
It's a trial of judgment that is what bait team means.
Um, and, uh, it is a practice of Jewish law.
Um, but there was spirit there and, and.
Really, uh, an intimacy and a trust there that had already been built.
So we got through the questions.
Uh, we talked about my name, my relationship with my family, what I'm afraid of, um, and what I hope to contribute.
And let's go to that one.
What do you hope to contribute?
I think it depends on where I'm at in life and what the tribe needs.
Right now I.
Hope to contribute my voice, which is why I'm here.
I initially did not want to do your podcast so soon.
Uhhuh.
Um, it's a dream of mine to do all the things.
Yeah.
And you're one of the things, glad that I wanna do glad's to make the list one of the top of the list.
Um, but I felt coming in so soon.
Oh God.
I don't know.
I don't know what it means to be a Jew.
I'm in my first 24 hours.
I know.
But it's so cool.
It's like such a unique opportunity.
Thank you.
So thank you for being here.
I really appreciate it.
Well, saying yes is a big part of what I wanna do, um, in showing up for the tribe right now.
I feel like I have a unique, uh, insight into the trans community and into the queer community.
Um, people not knowing I was converting.
Uh.
I've heard a lot of interesting things said about Jews.
I can imagine.
And there is a very real, alive antisemitism happening in the LGBT community right now that is not being addressed and is being fostered and it's growing and that really worries me.
Yeah.
So one of the things I hope I can contribute is to, uh.
Pulled up a mirror, uh, so that we can address the issue in a compassionate way without pointing fingers, but to understand why we're allowing this antisemitism to poison, uh, the LGBT community right now and hopefully get us in a better place where we can be allies again.
Sounds amazing.
What's, what's a step that, that, that you or we, or anyone can take?
Towards that repair because as you said, I mean it's, it seems to be really extreme.
I know every sort of mainstream Jew within the L-G-B-T-Q community that that I am associated with is having a terrible time of it for the last two years and feels really.
Unwelcome and, and hostile in what they have always felt to be their community.
So, I mean, you, what's, what's a strategy?
Like, where do we start?
I think starting at the facts, uh, is a good place and looking at history, you can tell I'm a history buff.
Yeah.
Um, as a writer, it's my favorite thing about writing is research and getting to know character for me is getting to understand history and where we come from.
Um.
One of the things a lot of people don't understand is, uh, this def definition of Zionism, um Right.
And what that means.
Yeah.
I got, uh, mini canceled a couple months ago when I posted a post just defining Zionism as a, uh, belief in Israel, um, that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state.
Like I think that's the simplest version of it for me.
Yeah.
And then I pointed out.
I didn't even talk about my own opinions or feelings or experience with Israel.
Um, but I just pointed out, uh, historically how, uh, queer icons and, uh.
The people who really established, um, the queer community, were all Zionists.
I wanna read some of the quotes from this post.
Zionism is not a dirty word.
It is the belief in Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.
Any definition of Zionism that aligns it with oppression or imperialism is a strategic attempt to undermine Jewish self-determination.
Very well said, very clear.
Um, thank you.
And then I would imagine the part that maybe you got the most pushback on was when you said that anti-Zionism erases L-G-B-T-Q history.
What did you mean by that?
If we can't acknowledge how the founders of our queer community and the founders of everything that we've benefited from, from trans medicine to hiv aids research, um, that that went hand in hand with people who supported Israel and that.
Uh, the people who support Israel are not evil.
Genocidal, maniacs.
I think that breaks down a lot of the identity that, uh, some queer people are holding onto.
Um, that anti-Zionism is anti-racism or anti Zionism is, uh.
Yeah, stopping any sort of, uh, oppression, um, when in fact anti-Zionism itself, uh, I don't want to say is based in racism, but there.
You've talked about this a lot.
You know, it's a hate movement.
Yes.
It's not a peace movement for sure.
It's not a peace movement.
And there are a lot of good people and a lot of friends of mine who have played into, um, anti-Zionism without realizing what the facts are.
And so I, I don't think that everyone who identifies as an anti-Zionist.
Has hate in their heart.
I want to encourage us to look at, uh, the facts of history of queer history and understand why Magnus Hirschfield was a Zionist, um, and understand why the state of Israel needed to be there and still needs to be there.
What was the, the nature of the response to this post?
How much negative, how much positive, and of the negative, what, what were they?
Dinging you four.
Can I talk about how I got there?
Yeah, please.
Because I think it'll explain.
Yes, my approach.
Um, so we went to Israel 10 years ago on Transparent.
Mm-hmm.
We wrote a whole season about Israel.
Every season we had a different holiday and season four, um, someone said, well, let's talk about Aliyah.
Let's talk about Israel and.
One of our assistants, I believe, pointed BDS in our direction.
And so in 2016, uh, BDS came to the Transparent Writer's Room via, uh, some people who worked on the show and said, if you write about Israel or go to Israel and you don't follow.
The boycott and you don't observe the boycott, we will destroy your careers.
And it, it was a very plain and simple threat.
And these were people working on the show or at the network or outside of the, not at the network.
Okay.
Um, but it was coming from a few places.
Um, one person, uh, very excitedly told me that he was part of.
Getting us to do the right thing.
Hmm.
There was like a pride that BDS got to the most Jewish show on television.
Uh, that's what it was called at the time.
Mm-hmm.
None of us really understood what this was about.
Uh, BDS was only 10 years at the time, 10 years old, and it's now, I think they just celebrated their 20 year Happy birthday.
I didn't know what it was about.
I knew in the community that, uh, Israel was a contentious subject, but it wasn't center stage like it is right now.
Mm-hmm.
We were told that it was an anti-racist movement and naturally we wanted to listen up and do the right thing, and so we brought in a lot of, uh.
Advisors, and at this point, this is the golden nature of television.
We had money to spend, so we like hired all the people, bought all the books, read all the things from, uh, the point of view of, uh, criticizing Israel.
So we wrote a very, uh, critical season of transparent on season four.
I haven't watched it since, so I really.
I don't know how far we went, um, but I remember the conversations that were had behind the scene.
The creator showrunner is Jewish.
Yeah.
But did or did not have an opinion on this?
None of us really were sure what was happening, so we said, teach us, we wanna do the right thing.
Uh, so we ended up not filming in Israel to observe the boycott and.
Um, at the end of the day, got a lot of positive feedback from, uh, anti-Zionist and we felt really proud of what we had written.
It wasn't until I was researching for another show that I read, uh, that German courts had taken BDS to court and.
Proved that they were an antisemitic organization.
And when I read like, oh yeah, that's what makes it an antisemitic organization, I, I was just shocked that my writing could have been informed by antisemitism Mm.
Without me knowing it.
And so I went back and I, I read a lot more.
What didn't I learn from the other side?
What didn't I learn from the Zionist perspective?
And there was a lot that was being withheld.
Sure.
There's a reason why people.
Don't want people to learn.
Right.
And uh, we're not allowed to question that right now.
Socially, don't look at it.
If you engage all sides of it, it's pretty hard to come out on the anti-Zionist side.
Yeah.
It really is.
It's understandable to see how complicated it is.
Mm-hmm.
And to want to say, I don't want anything to do with it.
Yeah.
That is a hot mess.
Don't ask me about Israel.
Like I understand that perspective.
Yeah.
My friends were reaching out, trying to teach me.
Um, I remember one really difficult phone call that I had was I heard someone was talking smack about me, someone I've known for years over this.
So I just texted her.
I said, you can call me, you know, talk to me.
And she said, I just, I feel like you haven't, um, been vocal enough for Palestinian suffering.
I said, I wrote an entire season of television about Palestinian suffering.
Get to know my catalog before you criticize me.
Yeah.
It wasn't a hashtag, so you didn't pay attention to it.
Right.
But it's there, you know, that's my work.
Yeah.
I've done that work.
I'm now trying to understand post-OC October 7th, a more nuanced portrait of why the state of Israel was founded, how that's connected to Judaism and how it's inseparable from Judaism.
And that's when I found.
Um, all these other queer icons who were a Zionist.
And then I began to question that, well, why were they Zionist?
How did their Zionism affect their work?
And a lot of times, like Larry Kramer who uh, founded Act Up, he quoted Zionism, how the queer movement needed to be more like Zionists.
Um, to protect ourselves and to, uh, establish our own self-identification.
That to me, is something that every queer person should know about when engaging on this issue.
I am pro-Palestinian and I am pro-Israeli.
Mm-hmm.
Like, it is possible to be both.
Sure.
I'm really glad to read your article in Aura and, and how you talk about, um, this moment right now in being a liberal Jew and how that's being tested because, uh.
Things are not so binary.
Mm-hmm.
So in my inbox it was just.
Uh, an inbox full of binary thinking, right?
Not nuanced.
The it's team or that team, it's the internet.
It's not nuanced, right?
So that's a lot of it was that I had also gotten a lot of hate for posting my Hanukkah candles this year.
So that's what made me post that.
It came January of four.
Like I, I posted shortly after Hanukkah, because two years ago I got invited.
October 8th, I was invited to an anti-Israel rally.
2023.
2023.
Okay.
By a trans person.
I was up late, I had just moved to New York, so I was still like redecorating.
Mm-hmm.
I was up really late and I, I logged on, on online and I saw the atrocities happen in real time and I saw the unedited footage and I couldn't believe that queer people were going to celebrate that.
Like it broke my spirit.
I posted something along the lines of, Hey, I studied this for a year and still had no idea what I was talking about.
So before you grab someone's flag, no, you probably don't know what you're talking about yet.
And I was meme right away.
Our Lydia Apartheid, I had, um, people dropping interviews.
I was doing a show at the time in New York.
You know, saying we can't associate ourselves with you anymore from that, from just, from that, from a tweet or whatever.
Yeah.
With Instagram.
Instagram.
I'm not on Twitter.
That's, and it was a lot of young Jews were upset with me, and so I, I paused and like, I didn't want to make the situation worse.
I didn't wanna use my words or have my words used to make things worse.
So I really waited two years.
I, I didn't wanna put anything out during the war either.
I know enough, I know enough about war to know that I know nothing about war, and I didn't want to fan any flames of fanaticism.
So I really waited.
Um, every once in a while I would put out a story if I saw something, but then Hanukkah came.
And I was lighting my candles.
Um, I was very inspired by Noah Dpe and her candle lighting.
Nice.
Love it.
So I was lighting my candles in my camper van as I was heading east and I was traveling and I got just an inbox full of like, piggy piggy oink oink, um, money sign, money sign, red triangles.
And so I thought, well, I'm damned if I do, I'm damned if I don't like.
I haven't come out as being Jewish yet, or even told many people in my personal life that I had my closest friends knew, but most people didn't know I was converting.
I said, well, why not just put this out there?
And, uh, a lot of the hate I got was not that dissimilar from the hate I got from Hanukkah candles.
It's the same.
Same people.
Yeah.
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Let's go back to the conversion ceremony.
Mm-hmm.
Question finished mikvah.
What was the experience of going into the mikvah for you?
I didn't dunk down right the first time.
What is that?
Because what, some hair were still on the surface, throw some hair on the surface.
Yep.
And when you come up, the mikvah at Attendant says if it's uh, you missed a hair.
Yeah.
They say if it's kosher or not.
Right.
And they announced you have to lift yourself up to so that you're not so buoyant and so that you go down.
So that gravity really pulls you down.
So there are.
Three times that you immerse yourself and you say a prayer each time, uh, you come up, the practices are so old.
And you kind of get how they're, they've been tried again and again and how do we get here and why three times, like why did that happen three times?
And I realized the first attempt is like, oh, this is weird.
Like really weird and very awkward.
I'm almost six two.
And there's like.
A relatively small pool that I'm in the warmest, most delicious, creamy water I've ever been in.
It was Oh, that's nice.
So I mean, I could have stayed in there for hours.
Okay.
It was amazing.
Uh, it was at a JU American Jewish University.
Mm-hmm.
At their mikva.
Did you do the Miller Intro to Judaism program?
Through them.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm on the advisory board of that program.
Oh, amazing.
Fabulous.
Shout out to, uh, to a JU to Jay Sanderson, who's been on this show and Rabbi Tarling has been on this show.
It's a really, really wonderful, uh, program.
Yeah.
A lot of people in my class weren't even considering converting.
Mm-hmm.
When I first started conversion classes 12 years ago when I was writing for Transparent.
This is something I'm interested in and I'll just do it for research as well for the show.
Um.
So you can learn a lot about Judaism without wanting to convert.
Sure.
A lot of people in the class had found out that they were Jewish and that their families had hidden their Judaism, and so they were reconnecting with their Judaism post October 7th.
So it wasn't all about conversion.
Why did you initially.
Begin looking into it while you were, as you said, writing on transparent.
Was it because of working on this Jewish show and it was just sort of in the water?
It was, I was curious, but also in the relationship metaphor, I had always casually dated Judaism.
Mm-hmm.
I like dated a rabbi once, a rabbi in training.
He was in divinity school.
He was an amazing guy.
Um, I had just been around a lot of Jews and.
Just love Jews my whole life.
I don't, I didn't understand like why I was so attracted to Jewish culture, Jewish ritual.
I mean, I love musical comedy.
Mm-hmm.
Like that's like the most Jewish thing ever.
Totally.
So naturally I just was always around Jews.
From the age of 21 when I moved to New York, I'm 47 now, so it, it was a long time of being in the Jewish community and being Jewish adjacent.
And by the time I got to transparent, um, one of the reasons I was hired was I was able to just.
Right.
Jewish voices, uh, very easily.
I didn't understand what that meant.
I didn't understand the Mount Sinai of at all.
Mm-hmm.
If you believe that it's 'cause you were there with us.
We were all there together.
Yeah.
Someone had joked that you are Jewish girl, like you're very Jewish.
Uh, didn't know what that meant.
Let me go see what that means and then I.
Didn't even realizing, I didn't realize converting was a thing that I could do.
When I, I realized how similar it was to transitioning.
It's like this thing that you, intuit, nobody's gonna tell you you gotta do it on your own.
You take it step by step, and if it's not right, you, you can stop.
You can turn around and go back.
So.
The stepping in and turning back.
For me, a lot of it had to do with the gender of it all.
My first class at the time, 10 years ago, was about birth and death, death rituals.
Mm-hmm.
And how it was done based on sex assigned at birth.
And I was like, Nope, I had enough of that.
I don't need that right now.
A lot has changed in how they approach, uh, conversion classes now as well.
That like there is a lot of room for Yeah.
Bar mitzvah.
Right.
And bait mitzvah.
Right.
Um, so like a lot of, uh, reform Judaism has made space for the trans experience and even the way the classes were laid out, it was, uh, much less focused on the binary the second time around.
So the binary gender of it all was a bit of a turnoff.
And then the experience with BDS really moved me away from my Judaism.
Hmm.
And it's one of the reasons I'm speaking about it because I see young Jewish kids really struggling, uh, with this.
And when I've talked to a few, they just want to feel accepted by their peers, like Right.
Um.
As any young person does.
Right.
And I hate that there's something in the world right now that is taking people away from God and from their experience of being able to live the life that they feel called to live and the thing that enriches us the most in our traditions.
So that was a part of it as well.
Just like Jonah and the whale.
Yeah.
I got pulled back.
What?
What instigated the pullback?
I just can't stop loving Judaism.
I just so sweet.
I can't, I can't quit you.
I can't quit.
We're talking a a decade gap.
12 years.
12 years.
Yeah.
So like was it off and on?
Was it off for a really long time and then back in hard?
Like how, what did those 12 years look like?
It was off for a while.
Um, leaning into atheism.
Leaning into agnosticism.
I'm also sober.
I've.
You know, my sober journey started 25 years ago, so I needed to get more comfortable with just saying, God.
I couldn't say God for a long time.
Felt like I was not being true to a part of myself by embracing something that was so homophobic in my childhood.
Mm.
So I had to really make peace with my demons and I had to get a lot of out of the way.
And each time I, I cleared away, I got closer to Judaism and eventually it was, uh, it was October 7th that I think a lot of us heard the call very loud and clear.
Who is your tribe?
We are in dark days.
Who do I want around me when the world is at, its darkest, what is gonna lift me up?
It's interesting to hear you articulate that.
I think for a lot of people.
Uh, even for a lot of Jews, like the, the, the perspective is like, why would anyone come in this direction during this crazy time?
Why aren't they running for the hills?
But to hear you articulate it in such a way makes total sense that like, when the chips are down, you wanna be with the people that you feel safe and connected to.
Yeah.
And so I just, I love hearing that perspective and I have not heard that said that way before.
I, I think it's hard to avoid, um.
Community whenever, uh, the world is attacking all of us on, on different fronts, it's not just Jews.
It's not just queers who are feeling this.
Like, it's a really scary time to be alive.
And, uh, so who are the people you're calling to make yourself feel better?
Who are the people that you're gravitating towards?
And for me, it was my Jewish community.
There had been some rifts in the LGBT community that.
Had me puzzled, um, why are we doing this?
Why are we going in this direction?
This used to be a movement of love.
It was, that's what marriage equality was all about.
Love.
How do we move away from love?
How did we get so far away from that?
But my Jewish family.
Maintained their roots in love, and that's what ultimately brought me back.
I don't wanna live in a world where I'm always fighting.
That's also why I'm going back with the name Yona.
Now I, I don't want to.
I don't wanna have a name that is just trying to crap on religion or someone else's beliefs.
I don't want to be in conflict.
I'm almost 50.
I'm really tired.
Yeah.
I've worked really hard in the, a queer community to make, um, life better for trans people and.
I need me time now for my spirit, and that's what Judaism has given me.
When I started having these conversations after October 7th, it wasn't that I was necessarily drawn further and further into Judaism.
I was pushed further and further away from my queer tribe, and that left Judaism for me.
It was like it had a shine to it and an invitation to it like.
We haven't changed.
Hmm.
We've been here a really long time.
We can hold space for a lot of pain and a lot of suffering, and we can be a safe place to explore that pain and explore that suffering and understand how we can make the world a better place.
That's what my studies became.
Um, instead of.
Going out and doing meetings about, you know, a queer story.
I started wanting to do meetings about Jewish stories and about like, how can we tell Jewish stories that uplift us.
As Jews, I can say us as Jews now.
Yeah.
Instead of the Jewish tribe.
Yeah.
How can we do that in a way that is not just, you know, talking about the Holocaust Please.
Or just even talking about Israel.
Like what, what are the ways that we can really embrace Judaism?
And be the light that we are commanded to be.
Well, it's awesome to have another major Hollywood voice, you know, rowing in that direction with us now it's, it's, you know, we need every single person.
Sounds huge.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So in Judaism, as I'm sure you know, like names carry so much meaning and the changing of names is such a Jewish thing and how each new name sort of represents this new.
Part of your life.
You keep saying that word struggle.
In this, in this interview, my bar mitzvah portion was the portion where Jacob wrestles with the angel and changes his name to Israel.
Amazing.
I've always related a lot to that story also.
Was that intentional that you No, that was just the luck of the draw.
That's just the week.
Wow.
That was just the week.
Amazing.
Um, I don't know.
I just, you know, that, that resonates with me a lot.
That you've had these different names at these different parts of your life as you've gone through these transformations.
It's very.
You know, literary, I mean, it's, it's, it's sort of like you could have, you could have crafted it on, on the page.
It's just fascinating.
That's what writers, writers, we do craft our, our stories.
It's well done.
Thank you.
Um, why do you think the queer community has been uniquely susceptible to this propaganda to, to being so, so quick to, to jump on this train?
We're in a lot of pain right now.
We're.
We are being challenged in, in ways, um, from politicians.
Uh, you know, the work that we've done is, is under threat.
I think the intention is good for a lot of people to wanna, uh, fight against that threat, and we should be.
But right now it feels like a bit of a bull in a China shop that we are fighting our allies as well.
We're all triggered right now.
We are all really, really triggered.
Um.
And when you're in that space and um, you are facing very real threats in the world, it's easy to hold onto anger.
That's natural.
I think we all do that and it's a way of protecting ourselves.
So I think the instinct is to protect ourselves and that gets.
Um, manipulated by political forces.
Political figures.
So there are politicians out there right now who have built their entire careers on destroying the state of Israel, and then they offer a little trans healthcare here.
Come over here.
And that looks very attractive.
If I could try to put some specifics to that, what I think I'm hearing you say is that the queer community feels threatened by maga.
Yes.
And then they see MAGA being supportive of Israel.
Yes.
And so they conflate the two and say, well, it's sort of, you know, the, the friend of my enemy is my enemy.
Yes, exactly.
It makes sense.
I mean, I guess, I mean, if, if that's all you understand of it, if it's surface, if you're gonna see it, it's a very shallow understanding.
Yes.
It's a very surface understanding.
Right.
Also, I found in my inbox when I got a lot of hate, uh, a lot of people reaching out, thanking me.
Good.
Not young people.
And that also has to do with colleges and what they've learned.
Sure.
But a lot of older people saying thank you.
I remember a community that was about love and we need to get back there and we need Jews on our side as we're doing it.
Because if you look at Jewish history, we're gonna be okay as Jews.
Um, we find a way always, I'm worried about the queer community.
Not having Jews by our side.
We need Jewish allies and we cannot be pushing away allies at a time like this.
We need all the help we can get.
I hope that message is heard loud and clear.
I hope so too.
We're gonna end our episode as I like to do always with a little game.
Amazing.
This one's called Extreme Baiting.
Oh, I love it.
Okay.
I'm gonna ask you some really esoteric, uh, Jewish halaka questions that I don't expect you to know the answer to, but maybe you will.
Okay.
And we'll see how it goes.
What is Shamini ert?
Can I pass on this whole segment?
No.
No.
So.
I've literally had to ask this question on this show multiple times 'cause I always forget which meaning outer is.
It is basically the eighth day of Sukkot, but it's its own distinct holiday, but no one's really sure why, because no one really knows what a sarat even really means.
Well, now I know.
Great.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
I'm, I'm so glad right now that.
After the final dip into the mikvah when I came out Yeah.
And said the Shema prayer, it was that I'm forever Jewish and this can't be taken from me.
No, because I feel like I might fail.
Oh, the four remaining.
Oh, you and 98% of the Jews on planet Earth, um, name one bug that is technically considered kosher to eat.
I mean, is yeast consider a bug?
No.
Uh, it's actually the grasshopper.
I didn't know that.
Me neither.
Why is it kosher?
I don't know.
I didn't go that far in my research for this game.
What fabric combination is?
Halachically unwearable most?
No.
There's like two.
There's two specific fabrics that when you put them together, you're not allowed to do it.
Cotton wool, you got one of them.
Wool is one.
The other is linen.
Oh.
Couldn't tell you why.
It is a divine mystery.
There are different interpretations as to why I'm allergic to wolves.
So easy for you.
I'm okay and I'm pescatarian, so it's a lot easier to be kosher as well.
Wow.
Okay.
You've just, it's like just all the stars are aligning for you, what is the minimum amount of matza required to eat at a Seder?
I have no idea.
Caite like an olive.
Okay.
That's it.
That's all you need.
One little bite.
You're good to go.
What do you call the type of kosher wine that non-Jews are allowed to open and it still remains kosher?
The kosher wine that non Jews are Let.
You're gonna hear this word.
Now, this one is, is the, probably the most answerable this, it's called Meshuval.
Meshuval.
It's a wine that's been, it's gross.
They like flash, boil it.
Okay.
And then that means that a non-Jew may open the bottle and it still remains kosher.
Right?
Which is pretty extreme to me.
I'm excited.
I get, get to open wine.
Now I'm sober, but I'll open, oh yeah, that's, I'll open someone else's mind.
You can open someone else's look at that.
Okay?
True or false, you're allowed to lie to keep the peace.
False.
True, true, true.
For like Shalom ba in your house.
If like it's gonna tell a white line, it's gonna.
Keep the peace, you're allowed to do it.
Okay.
How long do Dutch Jews wait between eating meat and milk?
I'm Pennsylvania Dutch.
Mm.
So you're close.
I know nothing about the Dutch, and I really know nothing about the Dutch juice.
I didn't know this.
72 minutes is the custom.
Okay.
Couldn't tell you why.
Uh, can you perform a briss on Sha?
No.
Yes.
Really?
Yes.
It is one of the only like exceptions to the Shabbat rule, as if the briss is the eighth day.
It's on Shabbat.
You're allowed to do it.
Amazing.
Mm-hmm.
You find hair in your soup at a kosher restaurant.
Is the soup still kosher?
I would say yes, correct.
It's just gross, but still kosher.
It's just disgusting.
And then we're gonna end on this one, which I think is actually.
Has a, is a beautiful lesson in there about Judaism, so that's why we're ending on it.
You're called up to the Torah for an Allah and you realize mid blessing, you don't know the words.
What are you supposed to do?
Uh, feign, blindness.
Um, you're actually, you're supposed to stumble through and just mess your way up as you get through it.
It's better to continue trying and making mistakes than to abandon the Torah.
Amazing.
Which I think is a nice lesson.
I love that
That's why I want to end on that one.
That's beautiful.
Yona, thank you so much for being here.
Thank you, Jonah.
Thank you for sharing.
Such a pleasure sharing your story and this moment with us and being here on this very special morning.
It's, thank you.
It certainly will not be something we repeat on this show, so thank you so much.
I feel so thrilled.
I'm in hour 22 of being a Jew.
Unbelievable.
Not even a full day.
Thank you.
A huge thank you to Yona for joining us.
And by us I mean the Jews.
She just grew our population by a not numerically insignificant amount.
And for that I say, Baruch Hashem.
And please, if you haven't yet, please leave us a five star rating on Apple and Spotify so others can find and enjoy these conversations too.
Toda Raba.
Alright, I'll see you right back here for the next transformative episode of being Jewish with me, Jonah Platt.